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[Music]

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well I finished Clemson College in 1951

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and it was second lieutenant of all

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certain went immediately in the airforce

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stayed in the Air Force for 21 months to

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meet my obligations got out of the Air

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Force and stayed in reserve and then I

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decided to go back school to try to see

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if I get my master's degree I started my

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master's degree work and couldn't find a

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good topic so I decided to go to work

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and went on down to Eglin Air Force Base

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in Florida worked for bitch'll

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Corporation of America for about three

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months there then later on went back to

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grad school again came back to Eglin

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again and that wasn't since June of 1956

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and as a weapons test engineer my job

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there was to try to look at the

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accessibility of weapons systems on

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aircraft and then I heard about the ABM

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a operation coming up here in Huntsville

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Alabama so I just thought I'd come up

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here and apply for a job but being a

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civil being a civil service employee I

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just transferred up here so I came up

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here in October 1956 and my first job

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was with my boss was Hans Paul one of

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the German pin a Monday group and Hans

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was a very good boss for me and he was

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he matter of fact that I hadn't knew I

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was working on my master's degree so he

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asked me to work on some cooling system

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designs and I did that and then I did a

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lot of work in flight evaluation also

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trying to figure out what happened the

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vehicles when they flew over a period of

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time I was able to work a deal with Hans

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that I could go back to grad school so

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he sent me back to grad school and I did

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my thesis on boiling of liquid nitrogen

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and that was used in the coolant system

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on the Jupiter system so from the

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cooling system design I wound up like I

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said doing a lot of evaluation of

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missile flight test on a redstone on

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Jupiter Juno general one didn't get to

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work on the Saturn one at all but they

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developed systems analysis ninna became

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a aerodynamic so research engineer which

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were doing aerodynamic heating studies

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imagine the temperatures of the various

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parts of the vehicle and while during

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flight and then later on night that was

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1960

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as I remember transferred in the

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Marshall Space Flight Center and I was

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immediately transferred into the air

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ballistics division there and I was in

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the technical and scientific staff on

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the air ballistics division at Marshall

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here

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and then over a period of time in that

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job I wound up being a project engineer

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only Atlas Center and the Atlas Aegina

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and that program however was transferred

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out at a paired time to Lewis Research

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Center and so I did not want to go to

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Lewis Research Center so I came back to

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Marshall and went back to my work in the

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when I first got here in 56 of a friend

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of mine both of us came up from Florida

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and we decided we would maybe we'll go

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to work for ABM a but we actually want

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to tell a homeowner to see what they

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were doing up there and we came back to

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ABM a but the problem in Huntsville 1956

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population was somewhere around I think

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47,000 or something like that and there

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were no places to stay so all five of us

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guys got together and rented the ladies

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living room for a few months until we

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could find a house one of our guys

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actually built a duplex and the

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restaurant moved in with him and I moved

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into a separate place myself and that's

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all the way it was in Huntsville it was

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just a laid-back town it was just like

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it was it you know Redstone Arsenal was

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bringing money it was like we always

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said it was a center of poverty an inner

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service center of prosperity because the

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fact that cotton fields here we're not

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selling their cotton and they and there

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was no interest in the area and so

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Sparkman senator Sparkman really was a

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trigger that put Redstone Arsenal on the

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map and he got a member now the average

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age for the engineer as well as I

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understand was 24 to 27

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most of us were just out of college

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didn't have a bunch of experience but

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here's what challenge we're gonna do

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something in 10 months has never been

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done before and so that was the thing

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about it was so interesting to be

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working in these challenging situations

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we didn't mind working 80 bucks 80 hours

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a week because when you were going to do

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something different and that was part of

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everybody had so much enthusiasm about

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it that that was the thing about von

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Braun he created so much enthusiasm

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about let's get this job done and do be

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I wound up being of men for the

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operations of developing design criteria

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for the lunar rover and so knowing

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nothing about the moon I begin to have

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to study a lot about the moon's surface

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what I thought it might be like and

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talked to the geologists to try to get

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some good feeling and then were able to

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get the surveyor spacecraft to land on

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the moon and so we landed several of

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those spacecraft on the moon and they

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gave us a good idea of the soil

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characteristics as well as a debris

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around the landing sites and we actually

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had one severe that bounced a couple of

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times which gave us a good idea of the

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lunar surface operations then later on

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we got the orbiter program and the

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orbiter program was an orbiting about 70

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miles 50 to 70 miles I'll think about

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the surface of moon and it gave us one

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meter resolution about three foot

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resolution roughly of the crater size is

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the number of craters or rocks around

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the crater thing like that so that was

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very useful for us as a design criteria

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point and then we can later on decided

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well we know pretty much about what the

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surface characteristics are like because

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of the severe spacecrafts so we'll

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develop some lunar simulated materials

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that we think would be a characteristics

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on the lunar surface operations and if

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we get in the future to do some lunar

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mobility studies we'll continue maybe

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use that simulant as a device for the

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wheel design and so that's actually what

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happened the lunar surface materials

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were created because we knew the

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particle size roughly the particle sizes

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things that sort and so we use that the

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waterways Experiment Station down in

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Mississippi had all these of test bins

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and we had these big test bins full of a

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lunar soil simulate and dr. Costas was

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when I worked with two he also was a

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Soyuz expect expert and so he and I

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together we were authorized to form a

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panel called a lunar surface travel

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ability panel and I was co-chairman of

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that and from that data we we actually

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established what we felt like was a good

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design criteria model for the lunar

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surface the actually the first the first

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mission was we actually

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impacted a ranger program on the moon

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and that was mainly to just see if we

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could actually do it first lunar impacts

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we had five or six missiles which didn't

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work too well we finally got one impact

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and we get the pictures coming in the

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moon but that didn't tell us too much

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but it did better my straighter we had

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the technology to drop something on the

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moon and then the idea became well now

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let's go back and see if we can go to

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some site that's really interesting on

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the moon and so that's why surveyor one

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site was picked mainly because there was

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nothing out there hardly an area and it

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was a very flat looking area based on an

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orbital analysis when first started out

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it was more important to be able to land

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on the surface and so but the surveyor

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spacecraft tail told us a lot about the

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moon's surface and we got some pretty

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good ideas of bearing strength and

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characteristics and we never did believe

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I never didn't believe the surface was

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going to be covered up in ten hundred

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meters of dust a lot of people did a lot

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of people had a concept but when the

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spacecraft bounced a couple of times we

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realized that well that at that

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particular site it I wrote a paper in

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1967 about going to a landed surveyor

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site to see if we could actually find

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piece of the material and bring them

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back to earth

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well that was severe one site but my

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idea finally evolved in Apollo 12 where

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they actually went to a surveyor site

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and actually brought back parts of the

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spacecraft and so I was really really

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it's sort of funny too while I was

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working on this programs trying to

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figure out dr. von Braun would come down

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every so often I had a lot of

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photographs and he would take a look at

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my photographs occasionally and we

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talked about where to go on the moon and

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that was well that was really

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interesting to meet the man and talk

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with him and so that was one thing

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already one of my memories already

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enjoyed von Braun was very much a people

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person most people don't realize that

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because been on earth Socrative been to

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German and Byron and stuff like that but

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he realized that if you're going to get

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people to work for him you got to let

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them think you're interested in he and

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you and so that's why was he might walk

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around in the lab and and and ask you

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what you're working on and a lot of

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times if you're working on some kind of

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engine part or something like that he

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may know that part and that was a funny

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there was a big decision between

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Marshall and Johnson who was going to

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control the program and NASA

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headquarters finally decided that

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Marshall would control the program so

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that part contract was issued in

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November 1969 for the boy and the one

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Boeing General Motors was selected as a

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contractor because their will design

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look like a better will design plus the

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fact they could actually fold the

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vehicle up and a lot of their studies

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earlier because they were thinking about

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building a severe spacecraft with a

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small remote control Rover on it for JPL

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and so but they didn't get the contract

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to build that but they had to concept

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them how to fold the thing up and this

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guy ference Pavlik from gentlemen for

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General Motors came in with his design

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and he had a little small radio control

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model of a rover what she'll actually be

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folded up and he put it on the floor and

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drove it into Vaughn Brown's office and

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I've been told that von Braun said you

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know we ought to go with you guys

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because your father hadn't anybody else

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but I don't know if that's true or not

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yeah we had all kind of signs we had

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with jumping designs we had crawling

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designs we had wheel designs that was

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that was something of the main those

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main concepts and I'm not way out but

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but the wheels seemed to be the way to

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go we did a lot of studies early Von

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Teese nails and those guys did a lot of

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studies on more emotional locomotions

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and braun engineering here did a lot of

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studies and the guys down in hayes

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aircraft did a lot of studies on the

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brown and finally we met Marshall got

274
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some money to contract out to get

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industry to see if he could come up with

276
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some nice designs and they came up with

277
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all kind of designs Grumman aircraft had

278
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:16,840
a funny looking wheel design Bendix had

279
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another wheel design a Chrysler head

280
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almost like a track vehicle design

281
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ACDelco came up with their wheel design

282
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and it's ironic the wheel design comes

283
00:11:33,180 --> 00:11:31,060
from a guy in England in 1857 named

284
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Thomas rickets and he acts it was a guy

285
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that was building locomotive wheels and

286
00:11:40,170 --> 00:11:37,930
he wanted to build a small corridor some

287
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:40,180
kind of small transporter and he came up

288
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:42,490
with the idea of a metal elastic tire

289
00:11:46,079 --> 00:11:44,560
we bought the wheel design back to

290
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:46,089
America and I say reinvented

291
00:11:50,999 --> 00:11:48,730
will because the problem was he didn't

292
00:11:52,650 --> 00:11:51,009
tell us how to make the tire and the

293
00:11:55,470 --> 00:11:52,660
tire looked like some kind of a wire

294
00:11:57,379 --> 00:11:55,480
mesh material so the engineers at

295
00:12:01,829 --> 00:11:57,389
General Motors our Sun they would have

296
00:12:05,670 --> 00:12:01,839
84 micron diameter wire size code it was

297
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:05,680
tungsten tungsten coated wire and then

298
00:12:09,119 --> 00:12:06,970
we'd have to figure out how to make the

299
00:12:11,369 --> 00:12:09,129
mesh well we couldn't figure out to make

300
00:12:14,069 --> 00:12:11,379
the mesh but we found in General Motors

301
00:12:16,499 --> 00:12:14,079
actually found a basket weaver there and

302
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:16,509
that basket we were axiom we both him a

303
00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:18,730
tray they built him a tray and he

304
00:12:23,249 --> 00:12:20,800
actually wove those towers takes about

305
00:12:25,290 --> 00:12:23,259
eight hours to make one tire and it was

306
00:12:26,850 --> 00:12:25,300
a very flexible time we had no problem

307
00:12:29,610 --> 00:12:26,860
with a target with the lunar astronauts

308
00:12:31,799 --> 00:12:29,620
actually drove about 56 miles on the

309
00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:31,809
moon if you take each of the mission

310
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nine the three different 15 16 and 17

311
00:12:39,509 --> 00:12:37,269
and each mission had three different

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00:12:41,460 --> 00:12:39,519
driving missions in it you take all

313
00:12:43,470 --> 00:12:41,470
total of those nine different missions

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it's about 56 miles what I played a

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00:12:47,369 --> 00:12:45,519
Birmingham and then we built a driving

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00:12:49,259 --> 00:12:47,379
simulator here and we actually train the

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00:12:51,150 --> 00:12:49,269
astronauts to drive on the moon and we

318
00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:51,160
cautioned them don't go above 10 miles

319
00:12:54,590 --> 00:12:52,689
an hour because if you do you'll be off

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00:12:56,879 --> 00:12:54,600
the ground 35 percent of the time and

321
00:12:58,319 --> 00:12:56,889
what we almost lost a couple of time

322
00:12:59,999 --> 00:12:58,329
because they got a little too fast went

323
00:13:02,340 --> 00:13:00,009
to but it was epitopes part of it and

324
00:13:05,369 --> 00:13:02,350
that was one of my jobs also worked in

325
00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:05,379
the during the mission Apollo 15 16 and

326
00:13:08,249 --> 00:13:05,920
17

327
00:13:10,739 --> 00:13:08,259
we worked here in Huntsville and we

328
00:13:12,239 --> 00:13:10,749
actually had the guys to photograph

329
00:13:13,619 --> 00:13:12,249
where they were so we could actually

330
00:13:16,110 --> 00:13:13,629
determine whether they were on the moon

331
00:13:18,619 --> 00:13:16,120
surface general motors and AC Delco

332
00:13:22,079 --> 00:13:18,629
delivered three flight vehicles for us

333
00:13:23,489 --> 00:13:22,089
in 18 months actually liberal for flight

334
00:13:25,889 --> 00:13:23,499
vehicle but the fourth one was going to

335
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:25,899
be a spare vehicle and they delivered

336
00:13:29,519 --> 00:13:27,279
and then they delivered eight different

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00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:29,529
vehicles total four for fight and four

338
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well the big problem was how to select

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00:13:40,730 --> 00:13:39,120
what kind of wheel design that was one

340
00:13:44,810 --> 00:13:40,740
of the big problem the second thing was

341
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how to provide the motor system and his

342
00:13:48,410 --> 00:13:46,740
drive system that was the second thing a

343
00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:48,420
big two of the biggest problems we had

344
00:13:53,060 --> 00:13:51,390
on it as far as the thermal control that

345
00:13:55,340 --> 00:13:53,070
was not we knew how can do that pretty

346
00:13:57,560 --> 00:13:55,350
well as far as radiation damage of a

347
00:13:59,420 --> 00:13:57,570
particle particular materials and an

348
00:14:02,030 --> 00:13:59,430
equipment we knew how to protect that

349
00:14:04,580 --> 00:14:02,040
pretty well the biggest thought biggest

350
00:14:06,650 --> 00:14:04,590
problem was the the inter reaction to

351
00:14:08,450 --> 00:14:06,660
soil in the wheel characteristics and

352
00:14:10,220 --> 00:14:08,460
like I say we did a lot of work in it

353
00:14:12,350 --> 00:14:10,230
waterways Experiment Station down in

354
00:14:14,090 --> 00:14:12,360
Mississippi so we had a pretty good idea

355
00:14:16,070 --> 00:14:14,100
of how well the vehicle could perform on

356
00:14:18,590 --> 00:14:16,080
the moon he gave us a lot of pride in

357
00:14:19,850 --> 00:14:18,600
doing something I mean here we are we're

358
00:14:20,450 --> 00:14:19,860
doing something nobody's ever done it

359
00:14:23,660 --> 00:14:20,460
before

360
00:14:25,460 --> 00:14:23,670
and it was sort of a national pride to

361
00:14:27,950 --> 00:14:25,470
be able to put those men on the moon and

362
00:14:29,330 --> 00:14:27,960
it's ironic when we put them in on the

363
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:29,340
moon we really didn't plan to do

364
00:14:33,530 --> 00:14:31,370
anything but put them on the moon and

365
00:14:35,300 --> 00:14:33,540
but after a while they said you know

366
00:14:36,650 --> 00:14:35,310
well we're going to the moon why don't

367
00:14:40,010 --> 00:14:36,660
we do something when we get there

368
00:14:43,030 --> 00:14:40,020
you know but I still consider the Apollo

369
00:14:47,870 --> 00:14:43,040
program almost like Christopher Columbus

370
00:14:50,270 --> 00:14:47,880
but came over said America went home we

371
00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:50,280
came over went the moon didn't settle

372
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:52,920
the moon and went home so I would love

373
00:14:57,260 --> 00:14:54,690
Cisco but I can settle the moon and do

374
00:14:59,660 --> 00:14:57,270
some research on the actual lunar

375
00:15:01,370 --> 00:14:59,670
history and that's and that's a real

376
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:01,380
problem is we don't we don't know too

377
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:02,730
much about the moon we don't even really

378
00:15:06,110 --> 00:15:04,800
know how the moon formed exactly there's

379
00:15:10,340 --> 00:15:06,120
a lot of theories on how the moon formed

380
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:10,350
and we know we had a lot of volcanic

381
00:15:15,710 --> 00:15:14,010
activity on the moon so we need to go

382
00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:15,720
back and get go to some of the other

383
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:18,510
sites and collect data from other sites

384
00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:26,010
but one of my most favorite members was

385
00:15:30,690 --> 00:15:28,390
was when I began working on the lunar

386
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:30,700
surface operation stuff and and I was

387
00:15:34,890 --> 00:15:32,410
asked to participate in the Apollo 8

388
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:34,900
launch as a member of the Scientific

389
00:15:38,910 --> 00:15:37,330
Advisory Committee on Apollo 8 and that

390
00:15:41,730 --> 00:15:38,920
was one of the biggest when I saw that

391
00:15:43,950 --> 00:15:41,740
and then and after that was I got to

392
00:15:45,450 --> 00:15:43,960
work on the early back in the old days I

393
00:15:46,950 --> 00:15:45,460
got to work on the early Jupiter flight

394
00:15:48,660 --> 00:15:46,960
test programs and that was sort of

395
00:15:50,970 --> 00:15:48,670
interesting being an Air Force officer

396
00:15:52,860 --> 00:15:50,980
myself I was sort of surprised when I

397
00:15:55,140 --> 00:15:52,870
found out the first Air Force ballistic

398
00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:55,150
missiles were the Jupiter missiles they

399
00:15:59,580 --> 00:15:57,370
were three squadrons here and Huntsville

400
00:16:01,020 --> 00:15:59,590
trained here in Huntsville I don't

401
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:01,030
remember the numbers of squadron but

402
00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:02,890
they actually wound up in Italy and

403
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:05,470
wound up in Turkey and there was

404
00:16:07,650 --> 00:16:06,880
something like I forget how many in

405
00:16:10,350 --> 00:16:07,660
Turkey

406
00:16:12,900 --> 00:16:10,360
Jupiter missile systems with Air Force

407
00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:12,910
insignias on them and they were nuclear

408
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:16,480
warhead armed and aim for Moscow and

409
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:19,690
that was 1961 well the service always

410
00:16:23,610 --> 00:16:21,250
had a good program as far as that goes

411
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:23,620
they did they did land the first a Luna

412
00:16:28,350 --> 00:16:25,930
caught on the moon and that was the

413
00:16:30,060 --> 00:16:28,360
first electric car on the moon and they

414
00:16:32,850 --> 00:16:30,070
did but it didn't go very far on the

415
00:16:35,250 --> 00:16:32,860
moon but and they got a lot of good

416
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:35,260
photography of the lunar surface but

417
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:37,090
their photography was not what I call

418
00:16:39,870 --> 00:16:38,770
high resolution photography I don't

419
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:39,880
think they released their high

420
00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:41,530
resolution photography that's the point

421
00:16:46,620 --> 00:16:44,110
and they did land a spacecraft on the

422
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:46,630
moon first in that thing and they also

423
00:16:51,420 --> 00:16:49,210
did did the backside photographer the

424
00:16:53,940 --> 00:16:51,430
moon also high-resolution photography

425
00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:53,950
bike saw the moon and then they also

426
00:16:59,400 --> 00:16:56,710
brought a sample back from the moon to

427
00:17:01,800 --> 00:16:59,410
the earth which we did which we did

428
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:01,810
which we have never done before but they

429
00:17:07,110 --> 00:17:04,450
did it yeah and then they tried to build

430
00:17:08,460 --> 00:17:07,120
their big booster and they blew up and

431
00:17:10,110 --> 00:17:08,470
killed a lot of people and I thought I

432
00:17:12,780 --> 00:17:10,120
killed that program for a while yeah

433
00:17:15,870 --> 00:17:12,790
well it was a space race in one sense a

434
00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:15,880
word because we didn't know who was

435
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:17,950
going to control space and that was a

436
00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:20,410
point and then when the ballistic

437
00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:22,660
missiles came into phase that was a real

438
00:17:27,420 --> 00:17:25,839
problem what do we do now so we've got

439
00:17:29,070 --> 00:17:27,430
to build some kind of deterrent against

440
00:17:31,830 --> 00:17:29,080
that ballistic their ballistic missiles

441
00:17:33,910 --> 00:17:31,840
so that's really what happened in the

442
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:33,920
early days of von Braun one

443
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:36,650
to build a lunar base and that was culpa

444
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:38,090
and he had a special program called

445
00:17:43,150 --> 00:17:40,730
project horizon and that was to build a

446
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:43,160
lunar base on the moon and as the

447
00:17:46,780 --> 00:17:45,050
generals always said the mana control

448
00:17:49,450 --> 00:17:46,790
the high ground controls the battlefield

449
00:17:52,740 --> 00:17:49,460
so the moon or surface was the high

450
00:17:55,150 --> 00:17:52,750
ground but that base never got built and